1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,480 Two private organizations, at least two, exist that are wholly devoted to intensive investigation 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,800 of every reported sighting of the unexplained objects. 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:19,000 Now one of these organizations is the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:26,000 The other is the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, NICAP and APRIL for short. 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:31,560 But both organizations are very long on the insistence of accuracy and proof before they 6 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:37,520 take a stand for the existence of UFOs, unknown flying objects. 7 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:44,000 Now during the past 17 years, both NICAP and APRIL have documented literally hundreds of 8 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,440 sightings. 9 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:50,640 From their investigations have come certain tentative and disturbing conclusions, at least 10 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,560 on the part of some people. 11 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:57,500 And it is these, and possibly an even more disturbing question, as to why the United 12 00:00:57,500 --> 00:01:03,160 States Air Force has apparently clamped the lid on much information about UFOs and where 13 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,640 this wasn't possible sought to ridicule such reports as it couldn't muffle. 14 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,320 These are the things that we are concerned with and going to discuss tonight. 15 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:17,960 Across the Nightline microphone are my two guests, NICAP member Walter Webb, a lecturer 16 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:23,160 in astronomy and one of the scientific and technical advisors to the organization, and 17 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:29,520 beside him, John Hopf of Newport, Rhode Island, a commercial and aerial photographer and amateur 18 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:34,760 astronomer and official photographic consultant to APRIL. 19 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:41,280 Both of these gentlemen believe there is something to this story of unknown flying objects. 20 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,960 Just what that something is is what perhaps we're going to find out tonight. 21 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:50,320 Aside from all of these matters, which seem to me excessively interesting, we will get 22 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:56,520 to the frivolous, yet kind of fun little part of Nightline known as the Nightline Twister. 23 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:01,280 I have a question, I have an award for whomever comes up with the correct answer first. 24 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,540 So that's the outline, generally speaking, of our evening. 25 00:02:04,540 --> 00:02:08,560 You will meet Mr. Webb and Mr. Hopf in Just-A-Move. 26 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,160 UFOs is the subject at hand, and I guess you might as well continue calling them that. 27 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,080 It's easier than using those long words, unknown flying objects. 28 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,120 I think so, yeah, these are unidentified flying objects. 29 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,800 All right, let's talk first of all as to where your interest began in this. 30 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:29,280 How were you triggered into becoming interested in the whole subject? 31 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:37,320 Well with me, it goes back to 1951, August 3rd, 1951, certainly an evening I'll never forget. 32 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:38,640 What happened? 33 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:46,120 I happened to be a nature counselor at a boys club camp in Michigan at Camp Big Silver, 34 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:51,960 and I took, as was my custom at the end of each camp period, I took my two best nature 35 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:58,560 students out under the sky, and at that time we looked through my telescope at the planets 36 00:02:58,560 --> 00:02:59,560 and the stars. 37 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:06,720 Well this particular night, about, it was between 11 and 12 o'clock at night, a perfectly 38 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,400 clear sky. 39 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,520 We were looking at the planets when all of a sudden I noticed this little red-orange 40 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:19,360 light traveling over the southern horizon, over the hills. 41 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,280 We all three of us saw this light. 42 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,760 At first I said to myself, well look, there goes a plane, but isn't it traveling in an 43 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,800 odd, rather odd pattern? 44 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,320 It was traveling in a sine wave, if you've ever seen a sine wave on a telescope. 45 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:35,960 Yes, yes, the gentle curve. 46 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,600 A gentle curve, an underlating wave, well it was a perfect wave like this only, it was 47 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:45,040 traveling in a straight course, straight path, within this wave. 48 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:50,400 Well immediately I realized that no conventional airplane flies in a pattern like that. 49 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:55,840 So by process of elimination, I said to myself, well my goodness this must be one of these 50 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,200 UFOs that people are talking about. 51 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:05,520 I had always wanted to see one, and it looked like this was my chance. 52 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:11,720 This object we followed over the southern horizon for about a minute, I guess. 53 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,920 And by the time I thought to get it in the field of view of the telescope, it had vanished 54 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,680 behind trees in the foreground. 55 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,240 So there went my UFO. 56 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:27,680 I had a chance to look at it close up to the telescope, but it muffed it. 57 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,280 So from there you began reading more and what happened? 58 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:34,320 The strange thing is it was just a light, and this is not enough to prove one theory 59 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,480 over the other. 60 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,440 So as a result I didn't even take any notes. 61 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:47,240 Well it was not until the following summer, 1952, when I really got interested, you probably 62 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:48,240 remember that one. 63 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,240 1952 was a big year for such things. 64 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,520 We call it a flap, UFO terminology. 65 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,160 Tremendous siding wave, and it began there in Washington. 66 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:02,560 And let's see, these were the radar sightings in Washington. 67 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,240 Of course they made the headlines and I got very interested and excited and went out and 68 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,440 interviewed people. 69 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,680 And it snowballed from there. 70 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,400 And you've been working on it and staying with the organization and learning more about 71 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:16,400 it ever since? 72 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:17,400 That's right. 73 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,400 Never seen it any more yourself though, have you? 74 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,320 None that I could really say might be a UFO. 75 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:27,120 I've seen some strange objects for short periods of time, maybe just for a number of seconds, 76 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,960 and of course wish that I had had a pair of binoculars in my hands, but I didn't. 77 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:32,200 We'll get back to you Mr. Webb. 78 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,920 I want to talk to Mr. Hopp, who is connected with the APRO organization. 79 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,120 And for short, we'll continue calling on that, these titles of your organizations. 80 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,720 Incidentally, both of you are sort of cross-fertilized here. 81 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,600 I understand that you, Mr. Webb, are also an APRO member. 82 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,440 I understand you, Mr. Hopp, are also an ICAP member, right? 83 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:49,440 That's right. 84 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,760 Well now, Mr. Hopp, how did your interest begin in this whole subject? 85 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,560 You're a photographer. 86 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:59,280 Was it having to investigate photographs of ostensibly such objects or what? 87 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:05,080 Well when I first heard the early reports of UFO sightings or flying saucers, as they 88 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:12,160 were called, I began to think, well, probably these people are mistaken, these are familiar 89 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:13,800 objects. 90 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:20,440 Probably the earliest sighting that got public notice was the sighting that Kenneth Arnold 91 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:21,440 made. 92 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:22,440 I forget what year it was. 93 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:23,440 Can you help me out walk with? 94 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:24,440 47. 95 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:25,440 1947. 96 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:26,440 I think that was the early year. 97 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,640 Well, I read the reports of Kenneth Arnold. 98 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:35,920 He had sighted a group of shiny disks flying in a national on formation over Mount Rainier 99 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,920 or in the vicinity of Mount Rainier. 100 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,800 He was flying a private plane at the time, his own plane, I believe. 101 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,920 And he was the one who gave these objects the name Flying Saucer. 102 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:50,360 He inadvertently described them as saucer shaped and of course the press, which is always 103 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:55,320 looking as you know for a little nickname to put on things of this type, began to call 104 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,000 them flying saucers. 105 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,960 That was followed sometime later by reports that some other people in the Midwest had 106 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,560 not only seen this type of object but had photographed it. 107 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:13,400 Well, I had discounted the Kenneth Arnold sighting as being a mistaken, familiar object. 108 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,880 But when I heard the word photograph, I picked up my ears. 109 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:17,880 That was your field. 110 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:18,880 That's right. 111 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:25,240 I have had quite a few years in doing legal evidence photography and aerial photography. 112 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,960 I know what a photograph can show as evidence and what it cannot show. 113 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:35,040 So I said, well, if I certainly would like to get a look at some of these photographs, 114 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,360 I don't really believe that these photographs are authentic. 115 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:45,280 Well, it was some years before I became acquainted with the organization APRO, Aerial Phenomenal 116 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:53,280 Research, and I subscribed to their magazine, or their little paper at the time was Mimographed. 117 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:59,520 And it wasn't very long before a mention came up in their bulletin about some photographs 118 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,560 that had been sent into APRO. 119 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,720 So I said, well, here's my chance. 120 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:08,840 Maybe if I write to this small organization, which at the time hadn't been in existence 121 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:14,240 very long, I thought perhaps if I write to them and offer my services, I might get a 122 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,280 chance to see some of these photographs. 123 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:24,800 I did write some time later to Mrs. Lorenzen, who was the founder of the organization. 124 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:29,480 And after some period of time, she agreed to send me some of the negatives that had 125 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,400 been sent into the organization. 126 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,840 And eventually I became the photographic consultant to APRO. 127 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,080 Well, now let's briefly find out what have you seen in these so-called photographs of 128 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:42,520 such phenomena. 129 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:47,760 Are there any that you would say indisputably move the existence of flying saucers, or are 130 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,120 all photographs still so-so evidence? 131 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:56,480 Well, we do not have any photographs that show any fine detail. 132 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:03,760 In other words, we have never obtained any authentic photographs that show rivets or 133 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:10,720 bolt heads or welded joints or anything that would indicate the material or the method 134 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:11,720 of construction. 135 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:20,440 However, I have in my file, or I should say APRO's file, at least a half a dozen different 136 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,720 sets or single photographs, which are indisputably authentic. 137 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,440 However, I should qualify this. 138 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:35,000 These photographs are the result of looking at probably well over 150 that have been sent 139 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,000 to me. 140 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:43,680 I certainly couldn't agree more with the writers and authorities who say that 99% of 141 00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:48,200 the photographs are fraudulent or mistaken familiar objects. 142 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:53,600 Unfortunately, in the beginning I spent a great deal of my time looking at out-of-focus 143 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:58,640 pictures of the moon with some well-meaning little old lady took with her box camera 144 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,000 and left in the camera and then forgot what she had taken. 145 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:07,960 And photographs that were aborted, time exposures, someone had set the camera up on the tripod 146 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,760 and taken a picture of the bay with the moon shining over it and then forgot to close the 147 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:17,800 shutter and had bumped the camera and got a nice bunch of little blobs and streaks. 148 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,280 And then perhaps it was some months before they had the role of film developed, they 149 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,520 forgot how they had taken it. 150 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:30,360 And this is the type of photograph that about, I would say, 99% of the photographs consist 151 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:31,880 of this type of material. 152 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,920 But is that other 1% that you simply haven't been able to say? 153 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:43,120 I felt at the time that I joined APRO staff in my little biography that they printed, 154 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:49,320 I mentioned that I hoped that someday we would get an indisputably authentic photograph that 155 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:50,920 would stand up in court. 156 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:56,080 The kind of evidence on which you could convict a man of murder, for example. 157 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:03,520 I feel now that we have far more than sufficient evidence to prove our case in any court of 158 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:04,680 law. 159 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:05,680 At least circumstantially. 160 00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:13,160 Yes, of course, we have never, as I said, obtained a photograph which showed such detail 161 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,520 that you could see how the object was constructed. 162 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:21,960 However, the other circumstances relating to how the photograph is taken is also of great 163 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,400 value in determining its authenticity. 164 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,240 At any rate, you are certainly convinced there is something, and you have photographs 165 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,040 that prove it to you and you are a skeptic by nature. 166 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:33,040 That's right. 167 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,120 All right, Mr. Webb, let's go back and talk about some of these sightings. 168 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:41,080 Now you are not a photographic expert, but you do know something about astronomy and 169 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,720 lecture in the subject. 170 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:48,760 And I'm sure you're not one of those who could be categorized as I have seen many items 171 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:54,400 in the news saying this was natural aerial phenomena that people mistook, that it's a 172 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:59,880 conjunction of Mars and Venus or the moon through a haze or something like that or a 173 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:00,880 weather balloon. 174 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,680 These things you know well what they look like, right? 175 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:14,240 Yes, I should, I want to emphasize this, that where I work, I have access to, well, many 176 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,040 calls from the public. 177 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:21,520 We get a lot of phone calls from people who claim to see UFOs, and I would say 90 percent 178 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,960 of them turn out to be explainable objects. 179 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:30,680 This is because the average person does not really know what is in the sky, and even familiar 180 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:36,480 objects seen under unusual conditions can fool even a trained observer as far as that 181 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:37,480 goes. 182 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:45,160 And so, and I agree with the Air Force on this, the bulk of reported UFO sightings are 183 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,760 explainable and they usually turn out to be high flying aircraft seen under strange conditions 184 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:54,120 or balloons perhaps seen at sunset. 185 00:12:54,120 --> 00:13:00,320 Inverted weather conditions can create very peculiar, they can do this and of course artificial 186 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:06,440 satellites, there's a whole new category that's opened up since 1957. 187 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:13,840 But like John, I'm interested in the small percentage which are the unknowns. 188 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,040 All right, gentlemen, we're going to talk about this small percentage and we're going 189 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,800 to leave the wishful thinkers, the projectors of their own imagination, the hysterically 190 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:31,640 inclined, the general category of kooks quote unquote, and talk only about specific things 191 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:36,680 that you either cannot explain yourselves, that you find evidence as far as you are concerned 192 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:39,880 and both of you are what I would call healthy informed skeptics. 193 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,720 We will restrain ourselves to these points from now on, okay? 194 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,000 All right, we'll be doing that in just a moment. 195 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,600 From west over here, back on nightline on WEI, my guest this evening, Walter Webb, a 196 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:56,160 lecturer in astronomy, one of the scientific and technical advisors to the NICAP organization 197 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:01,040 concerned with unknown flying objects, and John Hopf of Newport, Rhode Island, a commercial 198 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:06,600 and aerial photographer and amateur astronomer and official photographic consultant to APRO, 199 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,960 another UFO research organization. 200 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:15,800 Hello gentlemen, I want to go back to you, Mr. Webb, the thing that really brought me 201 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:20,280 around to even asking you to come up here, over the years I have read in the news of 202 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:25,080 UFOs and I've said, mm-hmm, yeah, great, you know, it sounds a little wacky. 203 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:31,040 And then only last month, here at WEI came the news over our news wires, and of course 204 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:36,520 I'm in no position to do investigative work on all of this, of a sighting of an unknown 205 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,400 flying object in New Mexico. 206 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,960 And suddenly I hadn't heard of this whole thing in a long time and my interest was somewhat 207 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,080 revived, and as I recall, the way I talked about on the news that night was with a certain 208 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:53,800 tongue-in-cheek attitude, which I guess is permissible in the ignorant when they don't 209 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,520 really have time to investigate it, and it does sound a little weird. 210 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:02,520 But then in contacting both of you and doing a little reading on the subject from people 211 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:07,560 who have spent years in investigation of it, I have, I must admit, somewhat changed my 212 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:08,560 opinion. 213 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:13,720 I am not a devotee at the moment, but at least I have an open mind to the subject of UFOs. 214 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,480 Now what about this thing in New Mexico? 215 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,160 There's been more investigation since the first original news item. 216 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,240 I gather that through NICAP, you found out all there is to know up to now, Mr. Webb, 217 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:25,240 so what is it? 218 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:32,000 Yes, I might add that both NICAP and APRO investigated on this one as well as the FBI, 219 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,760 the Air Force, state police and local police. 220 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:43,520 This case, which happened on near dusk on Friday, April 24th, may prove to be the most 221 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,320 authenticated landing report that we've ever had in this country anyway. 222 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,920 Now that was a landing of an unknown flight logic. 223 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:55,120 Yes, it was a landing report of an egg-shaped object out in the New Mexico desert, but what 224 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:01,000 really makes it outstanding is that this witness was a policeman. 225 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,160 And according to all of the investigators, Air Force and civilian investigators in this 226 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:12,680 case, this fellow was a very reliable witness, very reliable. 227 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:18,880 So what we have here then is a reliable witness apparently seeing an unidentified flying object 228 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:24,600 coming to a landing in the desert and then seeing that object take off shortly afterward. 229 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,680 Not only that, but he got within a few hundred feet of this object in so close that he was 230 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:35,840 able to see lettering figures or symbols of some kind on the outside of the craft, if 231 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,960 you want to call it that. 232 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:46,120 It was, had sat down on four girder-like legs, which is the description the policeman used. 233 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,000 Furthermore, two figures were seen standing outside of this craft. 234 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:57,280 Now he was driving to the top of a mesa and he was trying to track down an explosion. 235 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,680 He thought it was a dynamite shack in the area that had exploded, but when he got up 236 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,200 to the top of the hill, he could see that was not the case at all. 237 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,680 It turned out to be this UFO which had landed. 238 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,160 We don't know whether the sound was connected with that or not, but it's what brought him 239 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:10,160 to the end. 240 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:15,120 Well, yes, but when the object took off, the sound did come from the object, so that sort 241 00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:16,120 of clinched that part of it. 242 00:17:16,120 --> 00:17:18,680 What, like going through the sound barrier thing or something like that? 243 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,360 Now I don't know really, it was almost an explosion effect. 244 00:17:22,360 --> 00:17:26,240 And then the thing took off straight up and then away. 245 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,920 And with this tremendous speeds, which nearly all of them, this was in common with nearly 246 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,920 all the sightings that have been reported, that the speeds are phenomenal. 247 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,800 Well, they can hover at zero velocity and then in the next instant almost disappear, 248 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,560 they go so fast. 249 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:41,560 Fantastic speeds. 250 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,840 Well then, I read in the news item, Mr. Webb, that they went to investigate this policeman, 251 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,400 along with many others later, the spot where it was supposed to have been on these four 252 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,120 legs and there were indentations in the ground. 253 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:58,080 And again, now this helps add to this same report. 254 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,600 There was physical evidence in a way left behind after this object took off. 255 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:09,000 Four imprints in the ground, plus scorched bushes from the blast or tail flame or whatever 256 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,520 the exhaust was that the object left behind. 257 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,040 And that's about the extent of the information, but it's fairly well authenticated. 258 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:18,040 It seems to be. 259 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:19,600 Any Geiger counting of the area? 260 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:20,600 Yes. 261 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,800 I think it was the next morning, the Air Force came on the scene and went over the area with 262 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,840 a Geiger counter, but it was negative. 263 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,640 It didn't find any increase in the natural background radiation. 264 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,000 Now what about these figures seen? 265 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,960 Were they man-like or what? 266 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:42,680 Well, even though he was fairly close within a few hundred feet, about all he said, well, 267 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,720 he could even tell whether there was a helmet or anything on top. 268 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,200 He just said that he saw two child-like figures. 269 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,520 They seem to be very short, about four feet tall. 270 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,160 This seems to conform with earlier information about unknown flying objects that have been 271 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,800 seen over the past 17 years. 272 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,680 Mr. Hopf, now you have been connected with APRO and I have in front of me here a book 273 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,200 written by the director of APRO, Mrs. Lorenzen, as you mentioned. 274 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,480 Nearly all of the material contained in this book, which is not all hers, she merely collected 275 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,400 it and put it here, of sightings. 276 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:21,640 Of those who said they saw any sort of figures, humanoid, I guess is the proper word here, 277 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:27,000 they nearly all were shorter than we think of people being three feet, two, perhaps five. 278 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:34,760 Apparently the favorite type is a short dwarf or a pig-like person. 279 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,400 Now, I'd like to say something about this New Mexico landing. 280 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,480 I don't have any information on it. 281 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:45,240 I usually don't get any reports, any direct reports on these things unless there are photographs 282 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:46,240 involved. 283 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:52,080 I would like to mention, though, that New Mexico has been the scene of many other landings, 284 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,120 or supposed landings. 285 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:59,080 Some years ago there were luminous, like, egg-shaped objects which landed on one of 286 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,880 the highways near Alamogoto, New Mexico, and blocked traffic. 287 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,760 There was no question about the fact that the traffic was blocked and many automobiles 288 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,680 were stalled. 289 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,800 And a number of photographs were taken by base personnel that were going to the proving 290 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:16,800 grounds. 291 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:22,600 John, was this the Oragrandi case around the November 57 blast? 292 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:23,600 Yes. 293 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,880 In the object passed over the highway? 294 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,840 That's right, it passed over the highway and nearly all the cars stalled had ignition 295 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,080 trouble and their radios also were interfered with. 296 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,080 This implies electromagnetic behavior of some sort. 297 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,480 Apparently there is some electromagnetic radiation from these objects due to their, 298 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:42,960 probably their propulsive force. 299 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,480 Well, now you talk to the photographs there, John. 300 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,160 Did you see any of those photographs? 301 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:48,960 It's a peculiar thing, or it's not peculiar. 302 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:55,880 I should say it's characteristic that in this case most of the people were on their 303 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,960 way to work to the, what is the name of the place, Walt? 304 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:01,680 It was the Harlem and Ed Development Center. 305 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,680 I don't know whether it's still under that name. 306 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:04,680 It's adjoining white sands. 307 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,120 Yes, it adjoins the white sands proving ground. 308 00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:10,840 And most of the people whose cars were stalled, I believe, were on their way to the base 309 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,360 or from the base. 310 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:19,760 In any event, the few who did get photographs turned them in at the base. 311 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:25,560 And even though the Lorenzans, Mr. and Mrs. Lorenzen, who operate APRO, were working 312 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,680 at the base at the time, in spite of every effort they made, they were unable to get 313 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,600 any of the films. 314 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:36,200 This was quite heartbreaking to us because this was a time when we knew who had taken 315 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:42,200 the photographs, but being good, dutiful government employees and looking out for their 316 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:47,800 jobs like mad, they turned in all the photographs at the request of the authorities. 317 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,920 And of course they were all told that these photographs would be returned. 318 00:21:50,920 --> 00:22:01,720 You see, any photographs taken by a citizen with his own camera and film is his property. 319 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:08,440 No one has any right to confiscate any cameras or film unless, however, you were taking them 320 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:14,360 in a restricted area or on a military base or some other place, which is obviously under 321 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:16,000 control of government regulation. 322 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,440 But these were military personnel. 323 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,560 Some were military personnel and some were employees at the base. 324 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,920 And I don't believe more than two or three people happened to have cameras and gut photographs 325 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,720 at the most. 326 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,480 But the point is that we were unable to get any copies of these because after they were 327 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:41,040 turned in, we never were able to obtain any of them. 328 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:46,640 I don't recall any specific details, but usually we have many cases like this where people 329 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,040 employed by the government or military personnel have taken photographs on their own and they 330 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:58,120 have turned them in with the idea that this is something the government would want to 331 00:22:58,120 --> 00:22:59,120 know about. 332 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:01,000 And may I have it back, please, but it never gets there. 333 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,200 Well, you see, it's private property. 334 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:08,440 In many other cases, the films that were returned either were not the originals. 335 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,320 They were duplicates. 336 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:15,520 Or else the people were told that the photographs were of no value and that they, however, they 337 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,480 had been sent to some other base for investigation. 338 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:24,360 And after many years, some of the people finally gave up trying to get their originals back. 339 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:29,520 Now, I don't mean to say that this always happens, but we know in many cases, good original 340 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,320 films have disappeared. 341 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,040 I don't believe this is a malicious conspiracy to take away people's pictures. 342 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:41,120 I just feel that it's part of the normal government operating procedure where things 343 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:46,040 go from one department to another and eventually get lost in a file somewhere. 344 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,520 Now I could go into other cases of this type. 345 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,520 At one point, I had a little notice published in the bulletin advising members that if they 346 00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:01,440 did get photographs to please send them to APRO headquarters or send them directly to 347 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:07,320 me, and I would see that they got their photographs back within a few weeks or a month at the 348 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,720 latest, then if they wanted to send them to the government to go ahead and do it, but 349 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,160 we would certainly like to get a look at some of these original pictures first. 350 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:16,160 Right. 351 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,080 Well, now gentlemen, let's go back to that 1952 that you mentioned, Mr. Webb. 352 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,200 This was a flap, as you called it, and one of the biggest. 353 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,080 And so many things seem to have happened that year. 354 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,640 You mentioned Washington. 355 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,400 And I recall that myself, naturally, the capital of our nation and any such thing that nobody 356 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,440 can explain that shows up on radar scopes that people see and enough of them that they 357 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,400 seem to corroborate each other. 358 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,840 This is huge and large concern. 359 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,680 But once again, such a thing could be interpreted as being not interested in the capital, but 360 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,520 in the bases, the military bases surrounding it, couldn't it? 361 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:48,520 Yes. 362 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:56,920 Now, here in this case, actually cases, which began in Washington, some of those sightings 363 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,200 were later explained. 364 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:06,600 And I now tend to accept the official explanation of some of these cases as temperature inversion 365 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,360 false weather targets. 366 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:13,200 And inversion can occur in, especially in hot weather. 367 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,600 And apparently there was an inversion over the Washington area, just about, oh, for about 368 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,440 two weeks, I believe it was during these sightings. 369 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,680 And inversion can, this layer of air, can act as a reflective layer. 370 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:32,360 It can reflect radar waves up and then down to pick up ground targets, so it makes it 371 00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:34,680 appear as if the targets are actually floating in the air. 372 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:41,320 Now, at the time, I thought this was just sort of an explaining away procedure that the Air Force was following. 373 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,920 But now I just, I tend to believe this might have actually happened. 374 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:50,520 However, there were other cases during this same so-called flap, as we call it, where 375 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:56,680 the pilot saw objects, sizable objects, not just lights, that came in and came very close 376 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,480 to the planes and then moved away. 377 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:03,840 Also jets were sent up on scrambles after some honest-to-gunness UFOs during this time. 378 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,920 And inversions could not have explained it. 379 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,520 Could not have explained these cases. 380 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:08,520 All right. 381 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,920 Now, I want to get back to Mr. Hoppe and ask him a question. 382 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:18,360 There was a picture, according to the book published by the Mrs. Lorenzen, a picture taken 383 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:25,160 in 1952, that same year, Mr. Hoppe, from, through a window at the Coast Guard Air Station 384 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,080 photo lab in Salem, here in Massachusetts. 385 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:34,760 Now, that picture got on the news wires and was around, and I'm sure you saw it, four 386 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:39,760 objects in that one that gave all the appearance of the so-called flying saucer bit, sort of 387 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,160 an egg-shaped thing with a sort of a line through the middle, which can be, who knows 388 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,960 what, like a flattened-out Saturn. 389 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,840 So I guess you could describe it. 390 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:49,400 Now, did you see that photograph? 391 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,400 I have never seen the original negative. 392 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,640 However, I have seen prints that were supposed to have been made from the original negative. 393 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:03,240 I believe you could order a copy of it from the government, I think for 20 cents or something, 394 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,840 which was the cost of making it. 395 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:12,680 The photograph, the print that I saw of that photograph didn't show anything, which I felt 396 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,960 was convincing evidence. 397 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:22,320 A single photograph by itself of an object in the air is nowhere near as good as a series 398 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:28,520 of photographs or a motion picture which shows a progressive maneuver of the object. 399 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:33,800 Well, now I know you did make extensive tests on a series of photographs, taken some years 400 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:39,640 later down in, I believe off the coast of Brazil or somewhere in South America, the 401 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,040 island of Chindade, I believe, in 1958. 402 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,560 And perhaps I guess this is a sensational series of photographs as anyone has ever taken. 403 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,680 The object, this was during the International Geophysical Year, wasn't it? 404 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:51,680 That's right. 405 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,480 And there was a ship out there, it was going to do some observational work, and there was 406 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,200 a professional photographer aboard. 407 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,960 He happened to have his camera on a tripod on the deck at the time. 408 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:02,960 Am I right? 409 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:03,960 Well, the camera was handheld. 410 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:04,960 He didn't have a hand-held. 411 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:05,960 Oh, handheld, I'm sorry. 412 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,200 All right, well, so was handheld. 413 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,040 The point is, he was there and was loaded with film and it was daylight. 414 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,040 That's right. 415 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,800 And then he also noticed a thing out yonder. 416 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,000 And there's nothing but ocean and sky and some rocks on this nearby island, so nothing 417 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,960 to obstruct, nothing to foul you up in the way of weather balloons in the area or anything 418 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:24,400 like that. 419 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,360 And apparently this object, he photographed at some distance, and then it came closer 420 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:29,840 toward this little island. 421 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,480 He photographed it again. 422 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,800 In all, he made a series of six photographs as it came apparently over the island, circled 423 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,680 around some rocks, and shot back in generally the same direction as it had come and then 424 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:41,680 disappeared. 425 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:47,040 And four of these six photographs were very sure of the object. 426 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:54,280 I should explain that when this object came toward the island, a great commotion ensued 427 00:28:54,280 --> 00:29:00,840 among, I shouldn't say great commotion, four or five people that were near the photographer 428 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:06,640 whose attention was attracted by this object began to yell and call to others on board 429 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:12,600 the ship and others that were on deck ran over to see what this was all about. 430 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,720 And the photographer's aim was upset. 431 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,240 He was jostled. 432 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,560 The result is that the camera wasn't aimed in the correct direction for two of the photographs. 433 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,240 Two of the photographs showed only the water or the sky. 434 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,320 I should also explain that the photographer used an automatic rolloflex, which has a crank 435 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,760 type method of winding the film. 436 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:41,200 I believe he took the six pictures in something like 14 seconds. 437 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,640 That's one of the few type cameras that he could have done that with. 438 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:50,080 What he did was he realized that this object was really something unusual, and he attempted 439 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,640 to take as many photographs as he could before it disappeared. 440 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,560 When I have seen those photographs and some enlargements that you made from them of the 441 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:01,480 section where the object was, he unfortunately didn't have anything but a normal lens, so 442 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,120 the object is pretty small in the whole field of view. 443 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:09,840 Nevertheless, the blow-ups do show exactly the shape that so many people have described 444 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,720 in these sightings, and one of them is particularly good, the closest of them. 445 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,520 Yet even in the blow-ups, and this is discounting film grain and all of that, there's a certain 446 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:27,600 shimmering luminosity to this apparently solid material, but it has an unsolid look. 447 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,000 And this has been described, Mr. Webb, in nearly all of the sightings that I have read 448 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:36,040 about or heard, that there is a shimmeringness to this object, whatever it may be, and that 449 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:41,160 it wobbles or that it oscillates, is a word I've read used. 450 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:46,160 And I gather that one of the things that happens here is that either the object does wobble 451 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:51,240 or that it's got some sort of, what shall I say, we talked of a electromagnetism in 452 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:57,040 the burning of the ground, either an ionized kind of gas around it or something that shows 453 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,240 up in film that you don't see with your eye. 454 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:00,240 Does this sound sensible to you? 455 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:07,880 Well, there are some cases, yes, of objects being seen during the daytime that way. 456 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:13,800 Usually at night, the object has sort of a diffuse glow around it, but not always. 457 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,840 I really don't know what could account for such a thing. 458 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,960 Do you feel that that photograph at all shows this kind of movement? 459 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,280 No, I should explain. 460 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:28,040 The observers said that they saw this apparently solid metallic object surrounded with a glow. 461 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,040 However, the photographs didn't show this. 462 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,600 They were black and white photographs. 463 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:33,600 That's right. 464 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,760 In my examination of the photographs, by the way, APRO succeeded in getting the original 465 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:43,320 photographs after it took two years after these were taken. 466 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,760 I should say it took us two years to get the originals. 467 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:53,800 This was due to the fact that the Brazilian Air Force, Navy, and other agencies had examined 468 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,560 them over that period of time. 469 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,240 Mr. Webb, I want to ask you about some of the other sightings and see if we can get any 470 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,200 kind of a picture of what these objects are like, if there's any likeness to them or 471 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,880 any differences between some of the so-called reported sightings, which seem to be corroborated. 472 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,400 And we'll get into that in just a moment. 473 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:16,720 West over here, back on Nightline, we're talking about UFOs, unknown flying objects. 474 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,840 We have, I think, fairly well established, through two gentlemen who are very much concerned 475 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:25,800 with this, but both skeptical and scientific by nature, that there is something out there 476 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,560 that cannot be explained very rationally. 477 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,000 Mr. Webb, let's talk about some of these sightings. 478 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,000 There have been a number of them. 479 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,120 You brought up the year 1952. 480 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,640 We talked of this Trindade Island series of photographs and sightings by a number of people 481 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,160 in 1958, but there have been many, many others. 482 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,160 Yes, sir. 483 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,120 I have a file of sighting reports. 484 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:52,680 Many of them gathered while I was in Ohio, where I was born, and quite a few of them 485 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,680 also in New England, where I'm now a permanent resident. 486 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,760 All right, can we sort of take a rundown of those? 487 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:05,120 There are many good ones, and I'm just going to select one here that is, I consider to 488 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:10,520 be a very solid, very concrete UFO case. 489 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:18,760 This happened back in 1952 again during this flap period at Leroy, New York. 490 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,600 And I interviewed the student. 491 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,800 He happened to be a Harvard student, a law student, just a matter of months ago. 492 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,720 So it didn't come out until recently. 493 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:35,000 But it seems that just about the whole village of Leroy, New York, was out watching the sky, 494 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:42,520 watching two disc-like, silver UFOs, almost the classic saucer shape whirling around in 495 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:47,000 the sky, almost like searchlight beams, except these were definitely not searchlights. 496 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:53,160 This is one answer that the Air Force tried to promote immediately, but it was definitely 497 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:53,960 not. 498 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,400 There was no searchlight beam also connected with the... 499 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,640 No supermarket opening that night. 500 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,120 Not that night, anyway. 501 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,240 So they watched these two objects whirling around in the sky. 502 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:13,320 Then an airliner apparently traveling from Buffalo to Rochester, across the sky. 503 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,280 It was almost overhead, almost directly over the village when one of the two objects, in 504 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:23,400 fact both objects, as I remember now, came toward the plane, followed it a short distance. 505 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,320 One object hung back. 506 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:31,440 The one in front suddenly leaped forward, paralleled the plane on one side, jumped over, paralleled 507 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:32,440 the plane on the other side. 508 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,720 And this is a very common approach that these UFOs use when they're investigating our own 509 00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:39,000 aircraft. 510 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:46,360 Then the object that was around the plane began to move in a series of vertical loops around 511 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,000 and around and around the airliner. 512 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,360 It did this for about a half a minute. 513 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,280 And by this time the plane, and I kept going on a steady course, by this time the plane 514 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,640 had disappeared behind trees in the background. 515 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,920 And then the object, the disc seemed to be tiring at the game, came back, joined its buddy, 516 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,760 and both of them continued this strange whirling formation in the sky again. 517 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,360 How long did this go on? 518 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,000 This went on, as I recall, about 20 minutes. 519 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,640 The students you interviewed, how high above were these objects, can anybody tell? 520 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,320 How did those distance? 521 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,200 If I don't have the report here with me, but he was able to, he was a physics student in 522 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,480 high school at the time. 523 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,720 He estimated the height, this is very difficult to do though. 524 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:33,360 And he admitted that this was nothing but a guess, but they seemed to be very low. 525 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:39,720 But what interests me about this case is that almost it does prove the solid nature of the, 526 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:41,880 what I call a true UFO. 527 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,880 Because the object, when it passed between the plane, directly between the plane and 528 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,240 the ground observers, it completely obscured the plane. 529 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:53,120 It was as big as the aircraft itself, completely obscured it. 530 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:54,720 You could not see through it at all. 531 00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:58,400 So here you have a solid disc-shaped object. 532 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,680 Well now Mr. Hop, in this series of photographs, we talked about a moment ago around Tundari 533 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:07,640 Island in 1958, there were some estimates because it was known how quickly they went 534 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,360 through and did the photographing again with this rolloflex that you mentioned, how quickly 535 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,520 you can take a new picture. 536 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:13,520 Yes. 537 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,600 And then you can see that and seeing the difference in the photographs and doing some rather simple 538 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,760 calculations, they could dope out time, how fast this object was going and ostensibly 539 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:24,760 how big it was. 540 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:25,760 Yes. 541 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:26,760 And this was about its size, wasn't it? 542 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:27,760 Sixty feet in diameter or something like that? 543 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,280 No, I think the estimate was 150 feet. 544 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:30,280 150 feet. 545 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,080 And the test that I made pretty well agreed with this. 546 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,760 Of course there's no conclusive way to determine the size of a distant object. 547 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,600 Well all I can gather also is from what reading I have done that these objects are not all 548 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:41,600 the same size. 549 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:42,960 There are large ones. 550 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:43,960 Small types. 551 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:49,880 Mother's objects you might say and then little chicks. 552 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:50,880 Very small ones. 553 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:56,720 We had this is probably out of continuity here but I should mention in Newport, Rhode 554 00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:05,080 Island where I live, we had a case a year ago where two very reputable people, in fact 555 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:10,880 one of them is a well known, quite well to do local contractor, watched a small object, 556 00:37:11,240 --> 00:37:17,000 probably no more than three feet in diameter, rise out of the water right off Bailey's Beach 557 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,040 in Newport, which is a well known beach. 558 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,240 In fact it's the summer colonies beach in Newport. 559 00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:28,760 It's the beach where President and Mrs. Kennedy went when they were in Newport. 560 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:33,320 And this happened in, I believe it was November. 561 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,320 There was no one at the beach. 562 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:41,440 This contractor and a workman that was there with him watched this spherical object, they 563 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:46,640 estimated about three feet in diameter, rise vertically out of the water a few hundred 564 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,840 yards off the beach and hesitate for a moment about 50 feet above the water and then take 565 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,320 off at a tremendous rate of speed out over the ocean. 566 00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:01,800 I just mentioned this because there have been some cases of strange objects rising from 567 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:02,800 under the water. 568 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,320 Not too many. 569 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:05,320 This is a really... 570 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:06,320 A rare case. 571 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:07,320 Not rare. 572 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:08,880 There have been other cases like this. 573 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:17,200 But the objects apparently occur in all types of configurations and shapes. 574 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,440 The only conclusion, we haven't got to the point of drawing conclusions yet, but you 575 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,640 might assume that these small objects were some sort of remote controlled device. 576 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:32,720 It's unimaginable that the Navy would be testing any type of device so close to the shore in 577 00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:37,320 a resort area of that type. 578 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:43,080 Every possible explanation was investigated in this case and it was a true unknown object. 579 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,800 There was no question that the witnesses were reliable. 580 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,480 Gentlemen, both of you, let's go back to all the sightings that are known and authenticated 581 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,120 and more than one person seeing them. 582 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,640 Now I want to ask you, Mr. Webb, was the pilot of that plane ever contacted? 583 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:55,640 Did he see this object? 584 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,040 Well, I've been asked this. 585 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,760 First of all, it's very interesting here, in the local Leroy, New York newspaper, they 586 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,680 published the sighting but they did not mention anywhere anything about the objects coming 587 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,320 up and loop to loop around the airplane. 588 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,800 I can't really account for this. 589 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,520 You would think that at least one or two passengers in the plane would let the word 590 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,520 leak out that a sighting had been made. 591 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,360 John, any point on that? 592 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:26,520 The problem there. 593 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:34,120 The airlines understandably reluctant to publicize any reports that their planes are being buzzed 594 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:35,640 by any unknown devices. 595 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:41,240 I think the airlines have enough problems with normal accidents without encouraging the idea 596 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:49,200 that they're a source of investigation by unknown craft of any type. 597 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:50,200 I can see that. 598 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:55,480 Well, now, generally speaking then, various kinds of objects apparently have been identified 599 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:56,480 by witnesses. 600 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,120 There have been the saucer shapes and this is the most popular version. 601 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:04,240 There have been the long cigar shaped affairs and there have been round globes which seem 602 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:08,320 to hover over cars and stop their ignitions, as you mentioned. 603 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,640 This has happened to railroads. 604 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:11,640 Planes have had trouble. 605 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,880 There have been many pilots to report that their whole electrical systems went out in 606 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,880 seeing some such thing and then only in the nick of time does it come back. 607 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,600 Some planes have been lost completely unexplainably. 608 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:28,480 Several squadrons of planes have disappeared where there has been a rise in magnetic activity. 609 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:33,480 All of these things tend to, in a peculiar sort of way, corroborate one another or at 610 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,280 least lead to similar questions. 611 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,520 Am I overstating the case here? 612 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:43,680 Well, that's quite correct and as you mentioned there seem to be quite a variety of types 613 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,200 of these UFOs. 614 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,800 All right, gentlemen, we're just about time to get up to the news. 615 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,480 Shortly after the news, I want to go into one other matter and I think you had some concern 616 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:55,480 with this, Mr. Hopper. 617 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:56,480 At least know something about it. 618 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,520 Perhaps you do too, Mr. Webb. 619 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:04,440 One object that was seen to get into trouble and explode down over Brazil and chunks of 620 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:10,480 this object made of whatever fell into a lake and they recovered some of these pieces and 621 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,200 there have been numerous tests done on them. 622 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,440 And I want to get into what that test showed, perhaps some conclusions that we can make 623 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:21,240 very early and without all of the information that both of your organizations certainly 624 00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:22,720 have on file. 625 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:26,040 And then you want to open up the phones to anybody who has any other stories and I suppose 626 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:27,600 you would welcome this. 627 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,600 Maybe we can add to the file of both NiCAP and the AdRoll. 628 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,960 And this is something I know you're both looking for. 629 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,240 And questions or comments or curled lips, we're open to them all. 630 00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:39,520 So we'll see you in five. 631 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,000 Meantime, the magic word is UFO. 632 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:44,720 Unknown flying objects. 633 00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:45,960 Are they real? 634 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,440 Are they imaginary? 635 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:52,560 My two guests this evening, Walter Webb and John Hopf, both believe, though they are 636 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:58,400 natural skeptics but also they're scientists in their fields, one a professional photographer, 637 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:03,120 the other a lecturer in astronomy, both very much interested in the subject and they believe 638 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,160 there is something out there that has not been adequately explained. 639 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:11,560 We've been talking about this for some time here on Nightline, but right now we want to 640 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:12,720 get to some facts. 641 00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:18,720 Now Mr. Hopf, I believe it was in 1957 that a most unusual occurrence took place down in 642 00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:26,160 Brazil at a place known as Ubataba, I think I'm pronouncing it right, U-B-A-T-U-B-A. 643 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,800 Looks like uba-tuba but I guess they say Ubataba. 644 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,400 Something like that. 645 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:35,360 Apparently an unknown flying object, a flying saucer, attempted to make a maneuver that was 646 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,240 even a little too much for them and exploded. 647 00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:46,760 Not very far above, a beach and a lake and pieces of this object fell down and were recovered. 648 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:53,320 Great tests were done by those, by physicists and chemical analysis and radiological analysis 649 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:54,560 and I don't know what all. 650 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:55,560 Metalurgists. 651 00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:00,720 Metalurgists and so forth and a very scientific investigation that took quite some time and 652 00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:07,320 they made more than one test and what was proved that this material was made of? 653 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:16,080 Well a series of tests were made by the Brazilian Mineral Resources Board which had some excellent 654 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:17,520 laboratory facilities. 655 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,600 They made a number of spectroscopic tests on two or three different types of machines 656 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:32,680 and the results were very conclusive that this material was magnesium of a purity beyond 657 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,360 what we consider laboratory standard. 658 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:47,720 At that time I don't believe that any, in fact I know no metal fabricating plant in the 659 00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:54,920 world would have made metal of this purity in a quantity that would be required to build 660 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,440 any sort of a flying device. 661 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:02,320 Of course there'd be no sense in making, as far as we could see, in making any sort of 662 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,560 flying machine out of pure magnesium. 663 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,880 First of all it isn't the strongest thing in the world and it has all kinds of qualities 664 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,760 that we would consider absolutely impossible. 665 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:17,800 Well it's quite ridiculous to make anything out of magnesium of almost 100% purity. 666 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:22,080 The most refined tests that were conducted on this material by the Brazilian Mineral 667 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:26,000 Resources Board failed to show any impurities. 668 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:34,600 The purity was beyond any laboratory standard samples that they had. 669 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:42,640 I understand that recently additional tests were made in this country by a number of, 670 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:52,200 or by at least two laboratories, one laboratory of the Atomic Energy Commission and another 671 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:57,840 one by an independent chemical company laboratory and these tests confirm the findings of the 672 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:04,560 Brazilian laboratories that this material was definitely not a man-made material. 673 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,480 Now I'm not a metallurgist, I'm really out of my field here. 674 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:13,560 However, I talked to Dr. Fontes, he came here to Boston to meet me a year ago. 675 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,320 That is a scientist in Brazil who is also interested in unknown pilot. 676 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,280 I'm sorry, we hadn't gotten into that. 677 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:27,560 But Dr. Fontes followed through these reports and tests very exhaustively and after talking 678 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:34,480 with him I was completely convinced that there is no question of the fact that these tests 679 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,880 were authentic and indisputably accurate. 680 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:43,040 And consequently this material seemed to show that it had an extraterrestrial terrestrial, 681 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:44,040 I can never say that. 682 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:49,520 Well, there wasn't any question that this material, now if you like I could go into 683 00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:55,640 the, what happened when we sent samples of this material to the United States government. 684 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:56,640 Yes, we did. 685 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:57,640 Do you want to go into that now? 686 00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,640 Sure. 687 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:06,400 One sample was sent to the United States Air Force and this sample was accidentally burned 688 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:12,960 up in the spectroscope due to some error of the operator. 689 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:18,640 I'm not familiar with the operation of the spectroscopic machines but another sample 690 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:23,440 was then requested and the second sample, am I right here Walter? 691 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,200 The second sample was tested in a contaminated machine. 692 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:33,080 In other words, in order to determine the purity of the material. 693 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,080 The electrodes themselves enter into it. 694 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,760 Well it seemed that a previous test had been made in the machine and the fragments, the 695 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,360 machine had not been correctly cleaned. 696 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:50,720 You see, in order to detect impurities of a very fine degree by a test of this type the 697 00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:56,840 machine must be completely cleaned in a manner that's completely beyond our ordinary standards 698 00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:57,840 of cleanliness. 699 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,720 So what you're saying is that the second test was inconclusive. 700 00:47:01,720 --> 00:47:06,920 It showed traces of materials that were the result of the fact that these materials had 701 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,400 been left in the testing apparatus. 702 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:14,080 The Air Force then requested more samples and of course we drew the line here. 703 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:19,800 I don't know how many pieces of this material are still on hand but I know we had a number 704 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:20,800 of fragments. 705 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,880 It was completely pure magnesium. 706 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:29,600 Yes, the various tests that have been made certainly show this. 707 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,560 Alright, now getting back to you Mr. Webb. 708 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:34,560 Let's talk a moment. 709 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,600 We have not given every case that's available and obviously we don't have the time. 710 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:44,440 What conclusions can be reached logically without overextending ourselves on these unknown 711 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:49,360 flying objects, the fact of this magnesium not being of a purity that nobody's made to 712 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,520 anybody's knowledge here on earth or that they're incapable of making or if so it's 713 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,480 so expensive it's foolish. 714 00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,720 What conclusions can be met here at all? 715 00:47:59,720 --> 00:48:05,560 The fact that there seems to be some connection between these unknown flying objects and electromagnetic 716 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:11,640 forces of some sort that the objects themselves if one looks for a pattern one seems to emerge 717 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,640 what does that pattern look like to you and others who've studied it? 718 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:19,040 Well of course we're all interested in trying to figure this out. 719 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,880 There are patterns of course. 720 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,120 They're very difficult to determine many times. 721 00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:31,680 I've been looking for concentrations of activity here in the New England area and so far for 722 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:36,560 reasons unknown to me I have not been able to discover this yet but there seems to be 723 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:41,920 quite a concentration of UFO activity in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. 724 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,800 I'm in the process now of going back the past ten years taking all the sightings in 725 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,240 New Hampshire and seeing where they fall on a map. 726 00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:52,560 And trying to see why this might be. 727 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,920 Now one theory advanced by the APRO people with whom Mr. Hopf has more of a connection 728 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:02,680 or you're a member too is that these have come in waves over two year periods as a rule 729 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:08,440 though not always and that apparently some of the early UFO appearances had to do with 730 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,880 geographical mapping of our nation and other places in the world. 731 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:18,600 South America, the Orient, France, England underwent all of this even some have filtered 732 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,440 out of Russia and behind our curtain countries. 733 00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:28,040 Well of course it would be logical for any if you take the extraterrestrial theory here 734 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:33,520 that they might be extraterrestrial spaceships it might be quite logical for a scientific 735 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:39,960 party from another world or worlds to want to know all possible about the world that 736 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:40,960 they're exploring. 737 00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,880 Of course one of the many things they'd be doing would be to map the planet. 738 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,640 Well why so many sightings near air bases? 739 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:52,480 This seems to be more true than not in many of them. 740 00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,560 It leads one to suspect. 741 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,360 Am I being unduly suspicious or is this a pattern to... 742 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,400 Well there does seem to be some pattern there. 743 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,680 There are quite a few reported sightings over air bases. 744 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,520 Cape Kennedy for example, white sands. 745 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:12,080 I suppose this is one way of getting an idea of what the technology of the planet civilization 746 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:13,080 is like. 747 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:17,680 Would you say that the behavior of any of these it has been said by Mrs. Lorenzen who 748 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:22,000 wrote this book for which I've been mentioning from time to time tonight that these objects 749 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:23,960 appear hostile in any sense. 750 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,000 Would you say that that generally comes through to you Mr. Hopf? 751 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,960 I don't agree with that. 752 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:36,560 There's no doubt that there have been some authentic cases where people have been injured 753 00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,520 by the action of these objects. 754 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:44,800 However, I like to feel, maybe this is wishful thinking, I like to feel that any injury they've 755 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:49,400 done us has been accidental and due to the fact that we couldn't get out of their way 756 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,400 or they couldn't get out of ours. 757 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,560 The loss of aircraft that has been connected with these objects of course has never been 758 00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:58,960 conclusively proved. 759 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:05,600 But as I say, I like to feel that they don't mean us any harm but some of the collisions 760 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:12,560 and accidents that have occurred may have been due to the fact that the devices were 761 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,920 remote controlled in some manner. 762 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:19,040 Of course we're now getting into theorizing about what their intentions would be. 763 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,400 Well while we continue this theorizing, may I make a suggestion to our nightline listeners 764 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,200 here on WEI. 765 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,360 If you have any information on this, if you yourself have any feelings on the matter or 766 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,760 any beliefs or certainly experiences, mostly experiences, but indeed any interest in this, 767 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:36,880 we invite your calls and comments. 768 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,680 338-6700 is our number. 769 00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:44,960 So we might as well make it a party here and find out what this UFO thing is all about 770 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:46,420 and you can add to it. 771 00:51:46,420 --> 00:51:49,560 So we invite you 338-6700. 772 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,800 Let's theorize for just a moment. 773 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,560 New gentlemen have looked at a great deal of material here. 774 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:59,000 Can you carry on any theories that seem tenable to you Mr. Webb? 775 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:09,320 Yes, I have accepted the idea that some of these UFO sightings anyway seem to indicate 776 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:13,840 extraterrestrial spacecraft from another planet or planets. 777 00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,760 In fact I don't go along with those that think that there might be one world involved. 778 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:25,240 The great variety of shapes and sizes to these things seems to indicate perhaps several 779 00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:26,680 races involved here. 780 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,880 Well what would you say, now from what we know about space at the moment, interplanetary 781 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,100 travel seems to take a long time. 782 00:52:33,100 --> 00:52:37,480 Would you say that each one of these invasions, if that's what you can call it, flap, let's 783 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:42,520 use your word, comes all the way from another planet or maybe even another galaxy or have 784 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,880 they established perhaps, we're assuming now that these things exist, have they established 785 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:51,720 a base like let's say on the moon or have they themselves got some sort of artificial 786 00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:54,800 satellites traveling around either one of the planets or some such? 787 00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:55,800 What would you think? 788 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:57,160 Well it's quite possible. 789 00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:03,160 We have no definite proof of this but it seems very logical for any race or races from another 790 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:10,840 world or worlds again investigating this particular third planet from the sun, which is the earth, 791 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:15,520 that they might want to establish a base without being seen by the inhabitants of that planet 792 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:21,760 and a very good place to do it would be let's say on the far side of our own natural satellite, 793 00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,840 the moon that goes around the earth. 794 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:29,680 On the far side they could remain hidden there, of course this remains to be seen because 795 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:36,680 in coming years the United States and Russia as far as that goes are planning space probes 796 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:44,040 and these probes are going to be able to take more detailed pictures as the years go on. 797 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:46,040 I see. 798 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,960 Well we have a call from a nightliner, let's see what it's all about. 799 00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,760 I think I heard his name is Mr. Blip. 800 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,000 Sounds like he's connected to some radar. 801 00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,000 Flip maybe? 802 00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:57,000 Well hello sir. 803 00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:58,000 Hello. 804 00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:59,000 What is your name? 805 00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:00,000 Flint, definitely. 806 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,560 Oh Flint, you know it sounds like blip to me but that shows what kind of a program we're 807 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:03,560 on today. 808 00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:05,560 Okay Mr. Flint, go right ahead. 809 00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:13,360 Well I'd like to ask the gentleman here, I've been listening quite some time and I was 810 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:20,360 wondering why they never get onto the subject of this ball lightning which is an article 811 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:28,520 that appeared in one of the newspapers here by Mr. Menzies and he went on to tell about 812 00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:34,360 this chain lightning which seems to have separated itself, the ball lightning seems 813 00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:41,360 to have, maybe that nature has found a way of separating it from this plasma. 814 00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:42,960 Alright, well fine. 815 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,680 Mr. Hopf is nodding his head as if he knows what you're talking about, I don't so go ahead 816 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,560 Mr. Hopf. 817 00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:54,760 The ball lightning is another unexplained phenomena. 818 00:54:54,760 --> 00:55:01,760 To those listeners who have never heard the term before, the phenomena consists of a luminous 819 00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:07,920 ball of usually a small size, sometimes only a few inches in diameter which will enter 820 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:13,040 usually during an electrical storm and travel throughout the house and very often will pass 821 00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:18,080 out an open door or window without doing any harm, however occasionally if it bumps into 822 00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:24,840 something it may cause an explosion and there have been many many absolutely authentic but 823 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,160 very weird reports of this phenomena. 824 00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,960 I don't feel this has any connection with UFOs, I just feel it's another one of the 825 00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,880 many unexplained. 826 00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:36,280 Electrical phenomena? 827 00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:41,520 Well not just electrical, it's a phenomena connected with many other unexplained phenomena. 828 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:46,800 I don't want to say that it's electrical because perhaps this phenomena is not really electrical. 829 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:55,360 It seems though that some of the after effects from both are very much alike. 830 00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:56,360 Yes, well the... 831 00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,280 The ozone, the smell of ozone? 832 00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:05,840 Yes, well the feeling I have which I haven't had a chance to express yet is that so many 833 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:10,360 unexplained phenomena may be related in a way unknown to us. 834 00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:17,080 I feel that our scientific knowledge is in its infancy and I know a lot of scientists 835 00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:24,000 will be greatly hurt by this opinion but perhaps someday we will learn the connection between 836 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,520 many phenomena which will include UFO. 837 00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,680 Well Mr. Flint it's nice that you called, we have other nightliners here, let's see 838 00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:35,720 if they have experiences that can either help explain what you brought up or other matters. 839 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,000 Alright, thank you so much. 840 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:38,000 I'll be right back. 841 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,640 Okay, Mr. Stone is with us and we'll get to him in just a moment. 842 00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,640 Mr. Stone, you're on WEI's nightline, go right ahead. 843 00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,080 Alright, I was going to ask two questions. 844 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:51,480 The first was going to be dealing with ball lightning but that's been preempted already. 845 00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:52,480 Right. 846 00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:57,880 And the second was going to be a question about the weight and size of the magnesium 847 00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,880 sample referred to in tonight's conversation. 848 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:02,680 Alright, Mr. Hoppe I think has that. 849 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:04,520 I don't have the figures right in front of me. 850 00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:10,800 I believe these samples were varied from a fraction of an inch to two or three inches 851 00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:11,800 in size. 852 00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:13,040 Alright, thank you. 853 00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:14,440 I'm not sure of the weight. 854 00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:18,400 Okay, now you made some statements about it not being man-made. 855 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:19,400 Yes. 856 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:26,080 Well, you can make purie, you can make metals or semiconductors or anything you want. 857 00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:32,160 I've almost unlimited purity nowadays in laboratories and ultimately very large quantities. 858 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:38,320 So I didn't see how you can come to the conclusion about its man-made nature or non-man-made nature. 859 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:44,800 Well, I realize that metallurgical science has improved quite a bit in the last few years. 860 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:50,080 However, at the time of this sighting and at the time these fragments were picked up, 861 00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:55,600 no one in the world to our knowledge either had the facilities or the need or the desire 862 00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:02,040 to make pure magnesium in a quantity that would be required to make a flying device. 863 00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:03,840 Okay, now what was the year? 864 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,240 1957, wasn't it Mr. Hoppe? 865 00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:07,240 That's right. 866 00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:11,520 Okay, and can you give an estimate of any purity estimate at all of the magnesium? 867 00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,000 Well, let's see. 868 00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,760 The entire report's right in front of me but I don't know whether I can take the time 869 00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,600 to go through the entire report. 870 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:25,720 As I say, I'm not a metallurgist, however, I'd recommend that you get a copy of the 871 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,320 book which has an exhaustive treatment of it. 872 00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:33,920 The title of the book is The Great Flying Saucer Hoax, published by William Frederick 873 00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:36,240 Press, New York. 874 00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,280 And any book deal can get this for you. 875 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:41,640 If you're interested in this angle, I'd recommend that you get it. 876 00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:46,040 The metallurgical report itself occupies certainly 50 or 60 pages. 877 00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:49,560 I think I have just found one thing here that maybe I can give you. 878 00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:53,400 This one report, sir, Mr. Stone. 879 00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:59,560 An emission spectrograph test showed the presence of trace elements to this amount. 880 00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,320 Now, wait a minute, I might not know. 881 00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:03,800 That's the one about, oh, excuse me. 882 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,520 That's the one here in the United States. 883 00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:06,520 That one is no good. 884 00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,800 Why was it listed as contaminated? 885 00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:14,720 Because of the electrodes, I guess. 886 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:20,160 No tests were made by the government in this country that were properly conducted. 887 00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:24,040 Okay, now, who says that these things were not properly conducted? 888 00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:25,040 What is the criterion? 889 00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:28,840 In other words, you were about to quote an emission spectrograph. 890 00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,600 Yes, I was looking at the wrong one, sir, I'm sorry. 891 00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,600 All right, then let me go. 892 00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:39,920 This seems to be, to my mind, something foggy about this. 893 00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:44,680 You mentioned in the course of your conversation that the AEC had performed tests on the magnesium 894 00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:45,640 is that correct? 895 00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,440 Yes, yes, recently. 896 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:57,080 The original tests performed on the Air Force auspices were aborted for one or two reasons. 897 00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:03,240 In one case, they burned up the sample accidentally and I should say the sample was destroyed before 898 01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,080 the test could be properly set up. 899 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:12,680 I'm not sure what the procedure is to test metal samples, but the sample was destroyed 900 01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:13,680 accidentally. 901 01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:19,360 The second test, it was discovered after the test was completed that the machine was contaminated 902 01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,040 with the results of a previous test. 903 01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,760 All right, now, what laboratory did that? 904 01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:24,760 What Air Force laboratory? 905 01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:28,960 I'm not sure, but it was conducted under official government sponsorship. 906 01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:34,880 Okay, can you mention perhaps what the results of the AEC tests were? 907 01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:37,240 Well this gets a little complex. 908 01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:43,000 The more recent tests confirmed the three Brazilian tests which were made independently 909 01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:49,000 of each other in order to determine their bias. 910 01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:53,560 They confirmed the fact that this material was of a purity greater than the laboratory 911 01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:55,880 standard for pure magnesium. 912 01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:59,360 Oh, okay, fine, that's something definite. 913 01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:05,000 I hesitate to go on any further with these details because no one's a specialist up here. 914 01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:10,160 The only thing is, this is a very exhaustive treatment of this with all of the tables and 915 01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:12,080 all kinds of tests that I can't read. 916 01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,440 The only a specialist and a scientist in this field would really understand. 917 01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,760 Well, I'm a solid state to this. 918 01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:19,320 Yeah, well, this would be right up your alley. 919 01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:20,320 You'd be able to... 920 01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:21,960 Well, I'd like to break in here. 921 01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:24,640 Apparently, this man's an expert on metals. 922 01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:30,280 I have had these tests examined by a number of metallurgists, including some connected 923 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:34,960 with the government in Newport, and their opinions are conflicting. 924 01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:40,080 In other words, it's possible for different people to interpret these tests in different 925 01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:41,080 ways. 926 01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:44,080 I certainly recommend that you get a copy of the original book. 927 01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:48,440 I think you keep yourself fascinatingly occupied for at least a full day, maybe more. 928 01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:49,440 All right, thank you. 929 01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:50,440 Okay, Mr. Stone. 930 01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:51,440 All right, thank you. 931 01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:52,440 Thank you for calling. 932 01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:56,040 Ms. Q, gentlemen, is on our WE nightline right now. 933 01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:57,040 Hello, ma'am. 934 01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:58,040 Yes. 935 01:01:58,040 --> 01:01:59,040 Please go ahead. 936 01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:00,040 Oh, am I all right? 937 01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:01,040 You sure are. 938 01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:02,040 Oh, well, that's fine. 939 01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:03,040 It's a long wait, but it was reported. 940 01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,560 Well, I can hear them out the other way here now. 941 01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:06,560 You what? 942 01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:07,560 What is this on tape? 943 01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:09,960 You turn off your radio and you'll do much better. 944 01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:10,960 Are they just a- 945 01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:15,760 Yes, there's a delay here, and you'll only confuse yourself. 946 01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:17,560 So while she's gone, we will wait for the- 947 01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:18,560 I'm sorry. 948 01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:19,560 Ah, there you are. 949 01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:20,560 Good. 950 01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:24,120 I don't know if this is of any interest to them, but this was back in the year, almost 951 01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:29,560 to be 1953 or four, and I was sitting, it was daylight saving time, and it was somewhere 952 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:37,640 between the 17th of June and the 4th of July, and we saw this in elliptical green shape 953 01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,200 with like a glow to the edge of it. 954 01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:41,200 Where was this? 955 01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,560 Well, we were sitting in Sargass. 956 01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:48,880 Now, we didn't think anything of it except that we thought that either early were the 957 01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:55,080 fireworks for July or late for the 17th of June, and a couple of years later, I read 958 01:02:55,080 --> 01:03:00,200 The Flying Suffer Conspiracy by Kehoe, and I've been trying to go through this book 959 01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:06,360 now to find the reference, and it did mention a sighting over New Hampshire at that time. 960 01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:09,960 And I was wondering if either of your gentlemen knew about it, or was that just something 961 01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:10,960 that was disproved? 962 01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:12,960 What do you know about that, Mr. Webb? 963 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:13,960 Anything? 964 01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:14,960 Oh, gee, I've been racking my brain. 965 01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:19,160 Well, I've been flipping through the book, and I can't- it's just too much to look up 966 01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:20,160 in such a hurry. 967 01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:21,760 I didn't know you were going to be on. 968 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:27,720 Yeah, it seems to me I am a rather recent resident of New England, and sightings previous 969 01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:30,160 to 1957. 970 01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:35,320 I know very little about, but somewhere in the dim pass, I remember something about 971 01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:36,320 the Saugus case. 972 01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:40,320 You say you've had a hard time looking up the clippings? 973 01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:44,200 The same in Saugus, but this book by Kehoe seemed to indicate that New Hampshire had 974 01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:49,240 seen this semi-liptical green thing, and I never forgot it. 975 01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:53,240 It was so unusual, and it was daylight-saving. 976 01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:57,840 I know it was after supper, but it was still bright, so it wasn't, you know, searchlight 977 01:03:57,840 --> 01:03:59,480 or anything like that. 978 01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:03,920 Well, did you get the impression that it was solid? 979 01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:05,920 No, I didn't get that impression. 980 01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:10,320 And as I say, having read this keyhole thing, is that was at that distance. 981 01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:15,720 You see, we were looking in the right direction, because that was all her insight, having read 982 01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:17,360 about it much later. 983 01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:22,440 I don't want to take up too much of your time here on the phone line, but I'm very interested 984 01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:23,440 in this case. 985 01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:27,280 Could you just briefly tell me a little bit about the maneuvers of this object? 986 01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:28,280 Well, that's just it. 987 01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:33,520 It didn't- it wasn't there that long, and as I say, we thought it was a firework of some 988 01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:38,960 sort that they were maybe planning for the 4th of July, as I said, between the 17th and 989 01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:42,320 June, when we do have fireworks here in Boston. 990 01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:47,640 I tell you what, Ms. Q, suppose would you mind giving us your phone number, and I'm sure 991 01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,600 Mr. Webb would maybe want to call you a little later and find out as much as you remember 992 01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:54,880 about this, and then to see if it corroborates any other things they have in their files. 993 01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:57,360 So I suppose why don't you hang on the phone? 994 01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,480 Our producer will take your number, we'll give it to Mr. Webb later, and he can contact 995 01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:01,480 you, all right? 996 01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:02,480 Fine. 997 01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:07,760 We'll be talking to Mr. Irian here on our WEI nightline in just a moment. 998 01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:11,040 Hello again, Jim Westover on WEI's nightline. 999 01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:16,160 I have two guests who believe that there are such things as unknown flying objects, that 1000 01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:20,920 they have definitely been proved that there is something out there that is doing reconnaissance 1001 01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:25,120 work against the Earth, or at least over the Earth. 1002 01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:26,620 Question why? 1003 01:05:26,620 --> 01:05:32,200 I have Walter Webb, I have John Hopf, and both of them are very serious about this, 1004 01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:38,040 and they take a rather curable attitude towards the, what shall I say, the contactee element, 1005 01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:42,160 or the cultists, or those who believe they have been talked to by little green men, or 1006 01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:44,200 given messages of great import. 1007 01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:45,840 This is not what we're looking for. 1008 01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:50,160 We are looking for stories that seem to substantiate things which cannot be explained any other 1009 01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:58,440 way, except in some term of reference of extraterrestrial objects from somewhere else with some intelligence 1010 01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:00,280 guiding them and having built them. 1011 01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:02,880 Gentlemen, before we go on, Mr. Williams is waiting on the line. 1012 01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:04,480 I hope you'll be patient for a second. 1013 01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,400 I want to talk a little bit about your organization's APRO and NICAP. 1014 01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:11,840 Why are you doing all of this, getting all this information, going to all this trouble? 1015 01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:13,000 There's no money in it for you. 1016 01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,520 This is merely a matter of interest and scientific observation. 1017 01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:20,240 What is APRO working toward, Mr. Hopf? 1018 01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:24,240 Well, I thought you were going to ask Walt first, but... 1019 01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:28,680 Well, he's been talking so much, I'll give you a chance. 1020 01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:31,920 So many people say, well, what good is all this? 1021 01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:33,480 Why do you bat your brains out? 1022 01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:35,880 Look at all the time you waste on this, which is true. 1023 01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:41,720 I spent a lot of time analyzing photographs, and as I said before, the great majority of 1024 01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:49,000 them turn out to be mistaken ordinary objects or photographs that are blurr-ed defective. 1025 01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:58,160 However, all this, it's worth it to come across occasionally a good, authentic photograph. 1026 01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:09,840 The underlying purpose behind so many people working on the subject is the hope that... 1027 01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:11,880 This is sort of a fall-on hope now. 1028 01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:19,120 At one time, we in APRO felt that our little voice, and it certainly is small, we only 1029 01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:23,560 have around 2,000 members, but they're distributed throughout the world. 1030 01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:31,520 We hope that our members, our active members, would be able to communicate a serious attitude 1031 01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:38,960 on the subject to the general public, and I know this sounds like a very lofty idea 1032 01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:48,520 and quite impractical, but we had hoped that our few voices would reach enough influential 1033 01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:57,080 people who could join us in spreading the word that there certainly is more than enough 1034 01:07:57,080 --> 01:08:05,200 evidence to show that we are being watched or visited, if you prefer, by some form of 1035 01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:12,320 intelligent life, and by a process of elimination, we long ago came to the conclusion that these 1036 01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:19,360 objects must be operated by a superior technology. 1037 01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:21,480 You still have this purpose, don't you? 1038 01:08:21,480 --> 01:08:28,240 Yes, but I'm afraid that the hundreds and thousands of groups that have sprung up throughout 1039 01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:36,480 the world that have made a cult, and in some cases a real religion, out of the UFO question, 1040 01:08:36,480 --> 01:08:44,160 I'm afraid that we have been simply overwhelmed by the tremendous number of people that seem 1041 01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:51,640 to have a need to develop some new type of religion, which is what it is really. 1042 01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,040 Many groups are frankly religious. 1043 01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:59,000 Well now Mr. Hopf, I hope that this program tonight, and you're being honored, and Mr. 1044 01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:03,520 Webs shows you that at least I'm serious about this, and I hope that this has been a small 1045 01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:09,760 voice and maybe not so small in giving some of your original and I hope not too tarnished 1046 01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:11,720 beliefs in what you were doing. 1047 01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:13,280 Mr. Webb, how about NiCAP? 1048 01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:16,960 Is it looking toward something of the same matter as APRO or has it got a little different 1049 01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:17,960 viewpoint? 1050 01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:27,040 Well, I think it is a shame that these fan clubs, these little cult groups have sort 1051 01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:30,200 of confused the issue, if I may put it that way. 1052 01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:37,560 There are serious groups around and I think the two that come to mind of course are APRO 1053 01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,280 and NiCAP. 1054 01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:45,720 As for NiCAP, it has two goals really that I can think of. 1055 01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:51,480 One of them is a congressional investigation of the Air Force investigation. 1056 01:09:51,480 --> 01:09:53,000 As to why it's been so bottled up and two things. 1057 01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:58,520 As to why everything's bottled up and it seems that these serious civilian groups like APRO 1058 01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:04,080 and NiCAP arrive at one conclusion and the Air Force arrives at another, at least publicly. 1059 01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:10,840 We get the impression that there are facts and information that's being withheld from 1060 01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:12,800 the public. 1061 01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:18,280 So perhaps we hate the idea that perhaps the only way to do it would be to attempt a congressional 1062 01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:19,280 investigation. 1063 01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:20,800 Well, some congressmen have shown a great interest in this. 1064 01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:25,920 They have shown a tremendous interest in it and I think that NiCAP does have the backing. 1065 01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:31,600 If I may say this, NiCAP is about ready to publish a report called the UFO Evidence and 1066 01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:37,880 it's a summary of seven years of NiCAP investigations. 1067 01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:41,240 They will include a lot of sightings in this report and it's due to come out early next 1068 01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:42,240 month. 1069 01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:43,960 We think this could be the spark. 1070 01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:50,320 We hope that it will be the spark for congress to get on the ball here with a possible investigation. 1071 01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:52,440 Now that's one goal. 1072 01:10:52,440 --> 01:10:58,640 Through this means perhaps a scientific investigation would be the next step. 1073 01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:04,040 But I think that it's gotten out into the open first and perhaps this NiCAP report will 1074 01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:05,040 do this. 1075 01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:12,120 When it gets out, when the public realizes that there's something behind this secrecy 1076 01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:16,680 that's going on, something behind the UFO story as far as that goes, then the interest 1077 01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:20,720 may be generated and we can hope for a scientific investigation. 1078 01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:22,360 Good. 1079 01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:25,160 Well, I wanted you to at least state what the two organizations were trying to do. 1080 01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:26,160 Yes, Mr. Hall. 1081 01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:29,200 I can't help but comment on what Walter has said. 1082 01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:32,160 I agree completely with the purposes of NiCAP. 1083 01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:35,560 I don't want people to get the impression that I'm opposed to them. 1084 01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:41,720 I'm a member of NiCAP and I've supported them financially and I certainly hope that they 1085 01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:46,720 could get a congressional subcommittee to investigate. 1086 01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:52,560 However, I don't think this will ever come about because there are too many skeletons 1087 01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:55,720 in the closets of the military and the Pentagon. 1088 01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:59,280 I think that Pentagon must have 50 million closets in it. 1089 01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:04,960 I'm afraid that any sort of an investigation that was conducted by Congress would be conducted 1090 01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:07,720 100% behind closed doors. 1091 01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:14,560 The few little inquiries that Congress has held, a few subcommittees have held investigations 1092 01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,280 on this subject in the past. 1093 01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:29,000 The only speakers who testified at these hearings, I've said this backwards, the only statements 1094 01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:37,320 that were released to the press from these hearings were statements of Air Force spokesmen. 1095 01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:39,920 With the public attitude that we've already become familiar with. 1096 01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:40,920 That's right. 1097 01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:45,600 I don't give any hope to the idea that Major Kehoe has. 1098 01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:47,880 It's a wonderful, glorious crusade. 1099 01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:48,880 Well then you must believe. 1100 01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:51,640 But I don't believe that he'll ever get a congressional investigation. 1101 01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:52,640 You must believe. 1102 01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:56,720 Your view is a little more cynical perhaps than Mr. Webbs, but then you're a little older 1103 01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:57,720 than he is. 1104 01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:00,600 I think I've been in the thing a little bit too long maybe. 1105 01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:05,680 I'm honestly weary of butting our heads up against the stone wall. 1106 01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:10,880 We have never been able to get any coherent policy statements from the government on this 1107 01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:11,880 subject. 1108 01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:16,440 Well you must believe then, sir, that this whole investigation of UFOs or the whole evidence 1109 01:13:16,440 --> 01:13:24,160 such as it exists is one which is either so secret or has such terrifying, at least in 1110 01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:30,640 the opinion of some of our governmental leaders, very military, implications that they feel 1111 01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:32,960 that for our best interest they must keep it bottled up. 1112 01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:36,600 Of course I'll take issue of who should decide my best interest and I gather you feel the 1113 01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:37,600 same way. 1114 01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:43,240 One of the theories and at one time it was my favorite theory is that the reason the 1115 01:13:43,240 --> 01:13:49,840 government has gone to great lengths to discredit authentic witnesses and to ignore some of 1116 01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:58,440 the authentic evidence that we have is that the real truth about the UFO situation is 1117 01:13:58,440 --> 01:14:01,760 simply too horrible to make public. 1118 01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:06,320 And this is a very sad conclusion I have to come to but I don't know what other conclusion 1119 01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:08,160 you can reach. 1120 01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:13,240 I hate to feel that the whole thing is being concealed because the government has made 1121 01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:18,680 such a botch of the whole thing that they hate to have the truth come out of the mishandling 1122 01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:19,680 of this subject. 1123 01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:22,440 But gentlemen, it isn't just our Congress who can be concerned. 1124 01:14:22,440 --> 01:14:25,280 These sightings have been all over the world and there are other Congresses and there are 1125 01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:26,280 other governments. 1126 01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:28,680 Now is there any hope here? 1127 01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:29,680 Well possibly. 1128 01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:36,240 I might mention that in fact the Brazilian Air Force back in 1954 and this is in direct 1129 01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:40,800 contradiction with anything that's been released by our own Pentagon in this country. 1130 01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:46,520 They held a press conference and released three tentative conclusions. 1131 01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:48,600 Now remember this is back in 1954. 1132 01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:55,280 They have since changed their tune a little bit I think and closed down just as the U.S. 1133 01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:56,280 Air Force has done. 1134 01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:58,440 But when they were speaking openly they said what? 1135 01:14:58,440 --> 01:14:59,920 Here are their three conclusions. 1136 01:14:59,920 --> 01:15:04,040 They concluded that one, the UFOs were real. 1137 01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:07,520 Number two, they were revolutionary aircraft of some sort. 1138 01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:10,280 And number three, that the origin was unknown. 1139 01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:17,040 Now they don't come right out and say that they're space ships from our planet but they 1140 01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:22,080 are hinting at it and this is certainly a step in the right direction. 1141 01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:23,440 But you see something's happened. 1142 01:15:23,440 --> 01:15:27,160 Even the Brazilian Air Force has closed the lid down. 1143 01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:28,160 Yes. 1144 01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:31,400 Gentlemen, thank you for at least making clear some of your thoughts about what this means 1145 01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:34,880 and I apologize to those of you who are on the phone and waiting and we're going to get 1146 01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:38,520 to you right away but we do have a little message for you first. 1147 01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:43,960 I have been thinking about a thing for a long time. 1148 01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:54,960 Since molecules vibrate, now I was thinking if a creature or a thing from outer space would 1149 01:15:54,960 --> 01:16:01,560 vibrate at different speeds, could it be possible for this thing to not only be invisible to 1150 01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:07,880 us but to be in the same space as something on Earth? 1151 01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:11,720 Well that gets into that anti-matter again, doesn't it, country? 1152 01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:17,600 Well, there isn't any doubt that there are many unknown things in this world, in this 1153 01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:19,600 universe. 1154 01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:25,080 However, you could speculate on almost any type of a creature. 1155 01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:33,000 However, there's never been any proof that there is any type of life except the type 1156 01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:36,800 that we know. 1157 01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:44,280 We don't have any evidence at all as to what type of creature or intelligence operates these 1158 01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:45,280 UFOs. 1159 01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:50,400 Yet Mr. Hoppe, you yourself personally, I gather, are certainly willing to accept the notion 1160 01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:54,880 that there is intelligent life on other worlds or in other galaxies or somewhere else in 1161 01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:55,880 ours. 1162 01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:02,560 I believe that as soon as you accept the possibility that there could be other inhabitable world, 1163 01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:08,000 you automatically accept the possibility that there could be an infinite number just as 1164 01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:12,480 there may be an infinite number of stars in the universe and therefore there must be 1165 01:17:12,480 --> 01:17:17,000 an infinite number of intelligent races and an infinite number of UFOs. 1166 01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:25,000 I believe that we have just seen the few that happen to pass our way, if I may put it that 1167 01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:26,000 way. 1168 01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:27,800 And that they showed some interest in this? 1169 01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:33,320 Apparently many of these objects have shown a great adversion to coming in contact with 1170 01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:37,760 us personally, but they apparently have looked us over on the way by. 1171 01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:38,760 Okay, Patrick? 1172 01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:46,640 Well, do you think that a flying object or the people from other planets would say, do 1173 01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:52,520 you think that they would like to be visible to us or do you think they would be more sort 1174 01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:53,520 of shy? 1175 01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:56,560 Mr. Listen Patrick, you're going to have to wait a minute for that answer. 1176 01:17:56,560 --> 01:18:00,280 You're concerned with invisibility and we're going to get snuffed out here by the FCC. 1177 01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:02,480 If we don't do a couple of things right now, you hang on.